Musings, leadership tidbits and quotes posted by a retired Navy Captain (really just a high performing 2nd Class Petty Officer) who hung up his uniform a bit too early. He still wears his Navy service on his sleeve. He needs to get over that. "ADVANCE WARNING - NO ORIGINAL THOUGHT!" A "self-appointed" lead EVANGELIST for the "cryptologic community". Keeping CRYPTOLOGY alive-one day and Sailor at a time. 2015 is 80th Anniversary of the Naval Security Group.
Saturday, February 18, 2012
Don't need to be a 4 star to understand this
"We must never lose sight of the fact that it is our Sailors who carry the burdens of our bad decisions."
Admiral John Harvey
Commander, Fleet Forces Command
8 comments:
Justin Rogers ENS, USN (1170)
said...
Yeah, but it's this mentality that leads to the I-always-have-to-be-right mentality, or the my-way-or-the-wrong-way approach to doing business. It's not in our decisions, it's in whether we CARE. Our people will know if we care about them our ATTITUDES, not our decisions. Everybody makes mistakes - that's human nature.
I agree and right now the navy is making a huge mistake. The problem is we are cutting so many enlisted that we will fall farther and farther behind in training and maintenance of the ship. Very few cuts have been coming from the officer community and thats wrong. When you can fill an entire enlisted berthing on the ship with new accesion JO's something is wrong. V/OPS/LDO
I do not think you quite understood what Admiral Harvey was trying to relay in this message. It should be a given that the senior officer is right, that is what the military is all about. Most CO’s that I have known did not make critical decisions without gaining the benefit of his subordinate individuals opinions. It then became a shared responsibility and not a matter of, I-always-have-to-be-right mentality. That shared responsibility should reflect the attitude of the command toward all individuals of that command. A combined effort of applying experience and knowledge, that result in final decisions for all concerned individuals should be given consideration.
I would offer that being senior doesn't automatically make someone right, it just makes them senior.
One of the unfortunate trends with the reliefs of various Commanding Officers is that the individuals were not right and no one along the way provided the timely & forceful backup that a leader should and in many cases is required by duty to provide. More than once I have had to tell a senior (albeit tactfully and absent of juniors) that they were incorrect – sometimes in the interpretation of directions and sometimes in their actual execution. I haven’t always been popular, but I have also more than once kept my seniors out of trouble when they were going down the wrong path and more than once I have been thanked for my willingness to go against the group-think and provide advice.
And, by them being senior, the final decision was theirs, regardless of other inputs. Even though I was an enlisted man I at times provided advice that was contrary to my seniors opinions, and as you stated advice was rendered (albeit tactfully and absent of juniors), this was the proper method by which the situation could be handled. I really do not know who you are and it makes very little difference, I never considered myself to be wiser than as you call it (group think), and I have found that in most cases that the combined effort of Ward Room and CPO Mess would arrive at a proper decision when confronted with a problem. As I have posted on this blog previously at the end of each deterrent patrol that I was a part of, the Captain of our Submarine would seek me out and congratulate me for making this another successful patrol.
Navyman834, I agree, final decisions are the CO's realm and there is time for input, recommendations etc. However, I do stand behind that just because someone is senior they are not always right (again pointing out some the Commanding Officers that have been relieved lately; we generally don’t relieve CO’s for being right). When I am wrong I would prefer to be told than to just continue down an incorrect path, there are some leaders that don’t want to know and we can all hope that when they are wrong they don’t cost people their lives (from the original post -- the burden of a bad decision). Ultimately, we shouldn’t be afraid to have a questioning attitude, and here I am not talking about griping or always questioning orders, but we should always be using our heads and if something raises the hair on the back of our necks -- there is a reason. What I am referring to was talked about recently by Submarine Force Master Chief Irwin “There needs to be questioning, forceful backup at every level of the chain of command. The junior lookout on the bridge needs to have a questioning attitude as much as the seasoned officer standing next to him.” I wouldn’t think that ‘even though some is an enlisted man’ that they are not able to contribute or advise. Without enlisted Sailors a ship is a bunch of pipes, wires, and metal. I was enlisted for 12 years before commissioning and bottom line, I am better off for that experience.
You are correct in your opinion about the senior Officer, he is right when he makes his judgment if he considered the input of his Officers and crew, if that is necessary. Maybe my words were not clear, but the senior (CO or XO) even though they have the final decision does not necessarily mean they are right, but if their subordinates concur with their actions they are right, even if they are wrong.
A number of CO’s XO’s and CMC’s have lost jobs in the last few years because of the decisions they made. I am not trying to say that we were better back in those days, but we certainly did not have CO’s relieved at the rate of more than one a month back in the 50’s, 60’s or 70’s. It was very unusual in those times that a CO was relived for cause. The cause of this turmoil in the Navy has been in my opinion, the changes that have been required because of what has been forced by minority opinion upon the Navy, females are a real problem in the Navy in the wrong places, and a submarine is the wrong place, some COB on a boat has already been fired, I do not even care which COB or which Boat that the problem occurred on, that same type of problem will be an ever occurring event. It disturbs me that the non-combatants that control the military to every degree that they can have no idea what it is like to live on a submarine or in a foxhole for a number of months at a time. They are inclined to force stupid decisions on the military such as females on submarines or the repeal of DADT which does not help the military do their job and can only result in the degradation of the military overall, but these civilians have their way because they are in charge of us grunts.
You mentioned that the Force Master Chief Irwin noted that even the junior watchstanders have a great responsibility to question anything they observe, that has always been the duty of every Sailor on watch, junior or senior to report and to be recognized for their input especially if affects ships safety and security.
Very Respectfully, Navyman834 E. A. Hughes, FTCM(SS) USNavy (Retired)
8 comments:
Yeah, but it's this mentality that leads to the I-always-have-to-be-right mentality, or the my-way-or-the-wrong-way approach to doing business. It's not in our decisions, it's in whether we CARE. Our people will know if we care about them our ATTITUDES, not our decisions. Everybody makes mistakes - that's human nature.
http://www.navytimes.com/news/2012/02/navy-submarine-wyoming-co-hernandez-fired-021712/
I agree and right now the navy is making a huge mistake. The problem is we are cutting so many enlisted that we will fall farther and farther behind in training and maintenance of the ship. Very few cuts have been coming from the officer community and thats wrong. When you can fill an entire enlisted berthing on the ship with new accesion JO's something is wrong.
V/OPS/LDO
ENS Rogers,
I do not think you quite understood what Admiral Harvey was trying to relay in this message. It should be a given that the senior officer is right, that is what the military is all about. Most CO’s that I have known did not make critical decisions without gaining the benefit of his subordinate individuals opinions. It then became a shared responsibility and not a matter of, I-always-have-to-be-right mentality. That shared responsibility should reflect the attitude of the command toward all individuals of that command. A combined effort of applying experience and knowledge, that result in final decisions for all concerned individuals should be given consideration.
Very Respectfully,
Navyman834
I would offer that being senior doesn't automatically make someone right, it just makes them senior.
One of the unfortunate trends with the reliefs of various Commanding Officers is that the individuals were not right and no one along the way provided the timely & forceful backup that a leader should and in many cases is required by duty to provide. More than once I have had to tell a senior (albeit tactfully and absent of juniors) that they were incorrect – sometimes in the interpretation of directions and sometimes in their actual execution. I haven’t always been popular, but I have also more than once kept my seniors out of trouble when they were going down the wrong path and more than once I have been thanked for my willingness to go against the group-think and provide advice.
James Hammersla,
And, by them being senior, the final decision was theirs, regardless of other inputs. Even though I was an enlisted man I at times provided advice that was contrary to my seniors opinions, and as you stated advice was rendered (albeit tactfully and absent of juniors), this was the proper method by which the situation could be handled. I really do not know who you are and it makes very little difference, I never considered myself to be wiser than as you call it (group think), and I have found that in most cases that the combined effort of Ward Room and CPO Mess would arrive at a proper decision when confronted with a problem. As I have posted on this blog previously at the end of each deterrent patrol that I was a part of, the Captain of our Submarine would seek me out and congratulate me for making this another successful patrol.
Respectfully,
Navyman834
Navyman834,
I agree, final decisions are the CO's realm and there is time for input, recommendations etc. However, I do stand behind that just because someone is senior they are not always right (again pointing out some the Commanding Officers that have been relieved lately; we generally don’t relieve CO’s for being right). When I am wrong I would prefer to be told than to just continue down an incorrect path, there are some leaders that don’t want to know and we can all hope that when they are wrong they don’t cost people their lives (from the original post -- the burden of a bad decision).
Ultimately, we shouldn’t be afraid to have a questioning attitude, and here I am not talking about griping or always questioning orders, but we should always be using our heads and if something raises the hair on the back of our necks -- there is a reason. What I am referring to was talked about recently by Submarine Force Master Chief Irwin “There needs to be questioning, forceful backup at every level of the chain of command. The junior lookout on the bridge needs to have a questioning attitude as much as the seasoned officer standing next to him.” I wouldn’t think that ‘even though some is an enlisted man’ that they are not able to contribute or advise. Without enlisted Sailors a ship is a bunch of pipes, wires, and metal. I was enlisted for 12 years before commissioning and bottom line, I am better off for that experience.
James Hammersla,
You are correct in your opinion about the senior Officer, he is right when he makes his judgment if he considered the input of his Officers and crew, if that is necessary. Maybe my words were not clear, but the senior (CO or XO) even though they have the final decision does not necessarily mean they are right, but if their subordinates concur with their actions they are right, even if they are wrong.
A number of CO’s XO’s and CMC’s have lost jobs in the last few years because of the decisions they made. I am not trying to say that we were better back in those days, but we certainly did not have CO’s relieved at the rate of more than one a month back in the 50’s, 60’s or 70’s. It was very unusual in those times that a CO was relived for cause. The cause of this turmoil in the Navy has been in my opinion, the changes that have been required because of what has been forced by minority opinion upon the Navy, females are a real problem in the Navy in the wrong places, and a submarine is the wrong place, some COB on a boat has already been fired, I do not even care which COB or which Boat that the problem occurred on, that same type of problem will be an ever occurring event. It disturbs me that the non-combatants that control the military to every degree that they can have no idea what it is like to live on a submarine or in a foxhole for a number of months at a time. They are inclined to force stupid decisions on the military such as females on submarines or the repeal of DADT which does not help the military do their job and can only result in the degradation of the military overall, but these civilians have their way because they are in charge of us grunts.
You mentioned that the Force Master Chief Irwin noted that even the junior watchstanders have a great responsibility to question anything they observe, that has always been the duty of every Sailor on watch, junior or senior to report and to be recognized for their input especially if affects ships safety and security.
Very Respectfully,
Navyman834
E. A. Hughes, FTCM(SS)
USNavy (Retired)
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